Do any of you have information about the tankless water systems, if they work and are they effective? I have heard of these systems and would like to add some information about them to our Minneapolis water treatment website. If I understand correctly, electricity is wrapped around the water pipe and it requires no salt. It sounds too good to be true so, I am sure it probably is.
You can probably be as successful wrapping 3 cans of Chicken Noodle Soup around the same pipes. Remember, Grandma says Chicken Noodle Soup cures everything!
Just to get started on the correct equipment. The electronic controller is not a water softener, it never has been. Some quick sales people running out to make a dollar may misrepresent the facts.
Some of systems do work for conditioning the mineral ions in the water to effect hardness ability to foul the plumbing fixtures of your property.
I have worked and tested many over the years as testing consultant for clients.
The nicest or should I say cadalic of these was just released last year.
Manufactured by BDH Consulting, Inc. in Alabama. These guys are new to the water market but have pantented electronic auto parts for years.
Simply geneius they are. I have tested their WET (water effienct technology) product line and find it to be a great tool to combat hardness in a chemical free environment. A very GREEN environment technology.
Ken
(PS) Be aware of the jokesters who posted before me, seems they don't use their computers to gain nowledge or learn history. US., DOE.
Thanks Gary and Kenneth for your opinions. As I mentioned, I am simply writing pages for a Minneapolis Water Systems website. I spoke to the manufacturer at Aqua Flow and his system sounded quite interesting, but like I said before, almost to good to be true.
Having said that, I'm sure that the first company selling bottled water was nearly laughed out of the industry. And now consumers buy cases of bottled water by the truck load. Now that's disturbing!
I hope more of you water system industry professionals will weigh in on this. I would really like to write an honest opinion citing references from the water treatment professionals. So, if you have facts or studies you could point me to I would greatly appreciate it. - Thanks again.
Ok David here we go. The manufacturers and proponents will be jumping in with all the usual retorts of how wonderful these products are and all the websites with Uncle Billy's friends cousin who says they are great.They don't soften, although many claim to. While some may have the ability to descale in some applications they do not have any third party validation as to what they do or do not do. There is no way to test in a consumers home or business to verify that the consumer is getting a result. I and others have posed the question many times in similiar threads, how do you test the water and quantify a result? The question goes unanswered with the exception of several on this board porporting that they have used them for years and it worked great for their Aunt. Sorry that doesn't cut it, and the claims of softened water by so many of them is misleading to the consumer at best. I have removed at least 20 different kinds of units over the years, none of them did a thing except take money from the person who thought they were going to get something that as you said " sounds to good to be true" , let the tirades begin.
I would have to have ten hands and ten feet to count on my hands and toes how many times this question has been asked. The answers are always the same: No way to verify except by anecdotal information. Some studies have been paid for by the vendors of the equipment to try to push their technology but none have been "independent disinterested third party" testing facilities.
Bottling water is one thing. Treating water for home use is a complete other thing. You can put any water in a bottle and sell it and people will buy it. If they are on a city water supply do they really need it? The answer is only when the city has a problem to be solved until they do fix it. Imagine using bottled water for all your home working water needs. Do you really want to spend that kind of money?
The devices in question here do not make unsafe water safe to drink. They may prevent scaling but I, for one, am waiting for that independent, disinterested, qualified third partying testing. I provide a link for you to some information pertaining to those types of devices.
There is no such thing as a tankless water softener. What you are referring to is called an electrostatic or electromagnetic water conditioner that does NOT SOFTEN water. There are many pysical water conditioners on the market and some of the manufacturers have and continue to say that their product softens water without the use of salt. The problem in making that claim is that their product would have to remove calcium from the water which they do not. We have been manufacturing an inline permanent magnetic water conditioner since 1964 with much success in applying it to industrial, commercial and residential applications for the sole purpose of controlling scale to a point of not only eliminating existing build up but also preventing new formation of scale. There are several people on this board that still to this day refuse to even acknowledge that due to us not having the so called third party testing. I stand very firm on the fact that if our product did not do what we claim we would not have been able to stay in business this long. If you would like more information on our product or would like to discuss this topic further please send me an e-mail.
There is another product on the US market which utilizes the patented Hydopath technology that was developed in the UK over 10 years ago for British Gas.It is marketed in the US under the Hydrocare name. It does not use salt, chemicals or magnetics to treat hard water.Hydrocare does not claim to soften water as it does not remove the Calcium ions from the water, but they do claim to remove present and to prevent future lime scale buildup in plumbing, water heaters and appliances.This technology has been proven in independent testing by both British Gas and Onspex a division of CSA Labs in Cleveland and is certified by CSA. British Gas endorsees this product in the UK for all water heater and boiler installations and will not offer maintenance contracts on these systems unless a Hydropath unit is also installed. I have personally tested one of these units in my home for the last 30 days and I am amazed at how well it works and plan to market this product to my customers.
I believe that some time down the road salt brine discharges by water softeners will be severely regulated, limited or just out right banned throughout the country. In some states and local municipalities this reality is sooner rather than later. The Hydrocare system may not provide 100% of the same benefits as salt brine softeners. But the Hydrocare system has benefits such as removing already present lime scale buildup and is 100% green, something salt brine conditioners can not claim. If the Hydrocare products are proven to remove present and eliminate future lime scale build up in pipes, appliances and water heating devices, and control hard water spotting they will provide a very acceptable alternative to the traditional salt brine systems. The naysayers to this technology including some of the jokesters in this forum are either traditional salt brine water softener dealers or are beholding to the industry and may feel threatened to any new technology that may affect their livelihood.
On another posting forum it was stated by a member that since the WQA (Water Quality Association) has not certified the Hydropath technology it has to be in his words a "scam" . The Hydropath technology proponents have made repeated attempts to have the WQA test the products to get certification and all of their requests have been answered with a big "not interested". The WQA is the mouth piece for the water treatment dealers industry and their non biased (if possible) testing and certification could go a long way in settling this debate. They have looked into and negatively commented in their trade magazine about the magnetic scale preventative products that are on the market. But to my knowledge the WQA has not done any valid scientific research on any of these magnetic scale products. That being said, they can not lump Hydropath technology into the magnetics as it is an entirely different technology and uses no magnets and should be tested and certified separately.
The inaction of the WQA is no surprise as they are heavily supported by the traditional water softener industry and as a lobby group they have fought every legislative effort to limit, regulate or ban the salt brine discharges into local sewer systems and the environment. I am amazed that they call themselves the "Water Quality Association
By the comment you made in your last paragraph you surely are not insinuating that water softeners make unsafe water safe to drink are you? I am a little confused because I thought maybe you were referring that bottled water was safe to drink but then you also said that any water can be put into a bottle and sold.
On the subject of "Green." All the extra soaps and detergents used to make hard water more usable for laundry and cleaning can't be very "Green" either.
I don't feel threatened by new technology, I just need to be convinced it really does what the customer needs. But, I want more than just anecdotal reports.
If WQA did good testing on every idea that someone wanted to sell there would't be enough money. Membership rates would have to go up, way up. WQA would be doing the research and testing the manufactures should be doing.
In no way does my response indicate or insinuate what you say. Take what I write for whatever you want. Just don't read between the lines things that are not there.
I found your comment comical regarding if WQA did good testing on every idea that someone wanted to sell they wouldn't have enough money. You apparently were not aware of the $250,000.00 they spent back in 1985 for the WQA Research Report, Purdue University which was titled Quantitative Assessment Effectiveness of Permanent Magnetic Water Conditioning which by the way I would like to point out a few things regarding this research.
1. James Alleman who worked for Purdue University was the one who headed up the research for WQA and who also on the side assembled water softeners and sold them. What do you think? Would he be capable of performing unbiased research????
2. There were over 1500 errors in this research.
3. Eventually Purdue University demanded their name be removed from the research.
4. And last but not least, ours was one of the six tested. When Purdue University called us they said they would like to order one of our models for a drinking fountain so I sized it according to that and the next thing we find out they actually lied about what it was for. We then find out about the research being done and had no input on the testing parameters whatsoever. One more very important thing is that the model which I sold them was sized at a flow rate of a drinking fountain not a 6 gallon water heater. The whole idea of the research was to have the conclusion that none worked before the research even begun.
Would you consider the WQA an independent, disinterested, qualified third partying testing facility? If so please explain as from my understanding the majority of the members are made up of either water softener component manufacturers or water softener manufacturers. How is this DISINTERESTED?
Also if you believe they are how can you conclude that they are QUALIFIED if they throw out the kind of money they did to have such bogus research done at Purdue University.
P.S. I do not believe I was reading between the lines. It is there in your message Gary. By the way what happened to you not prticipating in discussions any longer that involved physical water conditioners?
I realize everyone is entitled to their opinion but Gary you sure do push the line between opinion and just flat out being beligerant. I wonder if the company you work for really knows or even cares how you treat people on here.
I'm no testing or lab expert, but if the goal is to determine simply whether a device reduces or eliminates scale deposition on pipes, etc., how hard could it be to set up a test that runs hard water through two systems with identical piping components, one a "control" system and the other a system that has one of these devices? After a period of time (probably lengthy, which could be a cost factor for such a test), I would think you could measure or weigh the amount of mineral scale accumulation in each system and compare them. Again, this would not be a test for "softening," but maybe it could move the ball a bit on this whole issue. Just a thought.
MY point about WQA certification was more tongue and cheek as we both agree it would not be in their best interest to do a scientific certifiable study on any new hard water treatment that might be proven to work as claimed. In another forum on this subject it was pointed out by a very opinionated water softener dealer that as a WQA member it is against their code of ethics to sell. market or promote any product in the water treatment industry that does not have the WQA Seal of Approval. His rational is if the WQA doesn't approve it has to be a "scam". The use of scam is a quote from this person. If the WQA said the sky was falling I guess he would have to agee with them.
The ONspex research done on the Hydropath technology was requested and paid for independently of the manufacturer by RS Jackson Resources to prove how the Hydropath technology could prevent any lime scale build up in tankless water heaters. The conclusion by Onspex was that the Hydropath unit prevented any accumulation of lime scale after 90 days of continual use. The control unit with no hard water treatment shut down after 90 days as the water flow was reduced by lime scale build up to less than .9 gpm. British gas did their own research on Hydropath over 10 years ago and now endorses the product on all new equipment installations in the UK. The reality is that the WQA and most traditional water softener dealers do not want this technology to work and will continue to use words like "scam" and "fraud when doing any online discussions on the subject. And it is understandable as they are trying to protect their livelihoods and feel very threatened so the only way the can react is with the dissemination of false information, accusations and a lot of name calling.
I agree with you. I have been in the water treatment arena since 1981 starting with a little company called Culligan. I have since gone on and found failures and successes using different technologies from Anion To Zinc. Although Ion exchange is the most used technology for calcium and magnesium reduction, and I do use them extensively, I have stated and stand by my statement that Physical treatment devices such as magnetics do have their place. Scale reduction in the right application is achievable. Scale prevention in the system with the right application is achievable. As Scott and others have pointed out:
MAGNETIC SOFTENING OF THE WATER IS NOT ACHIEVABLE.
AS we get to the end point of this thread, as many others voice their opinions the real answer to the thread is NO. Tankless softeners since they don't really exist don't work. Tankless physical water treatment devices in proper applications, with proper expectations can and do work.
Below is the link to the WQA Code of Ethics. Please point me to where it says anything about requiring members to only sell, market or promote WQA Gold Seal products????? What a bunch of garbage for you to publish hearsay from some person who has no idea what they are talking about.
Scott,
The WQA is licensed by NSF to do certification testing under the ANSI/NSF Standards. So, you do not believe they are qualified? I do.
As persons who are not WQA members I find it interesting that you both seem to know so much about it.
Tom,
Regarding testing protocols for PWT devices, yes, the test is relatively simple but carry's a cost. Only one other PWT manufacturer has stepped up to that plate with an independent, disinterested, qualifed third party testing facility who tested and certified it's performance. The supplier paid for the necessary testing. Why these other PWT people don't do the same I don't have the slightest idea. I do know that WQA and NSF are looking into developing protocols for testing PWT devices. They are approaching it in a very professional manner and I expect to see that come to fruition in the future. It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how many PWT manufacturers/suppliers submit their devices for that testing.
Thank you for the link to the WQA code of ethics. The person who made the comment posted it on another forum when a similar question about Hydrocare was asked. He is a regular poster on this forum and a salt brine water softener dealer. He may have said this based on the WQA Code in Par. 2 & 4 under Marketing Guidelines as quoted:
"
2. Product performance, benefits, or other claims, either written or
verbal, shall be based on factual data obtained from tests conducted
by technically competent personnel utilizing verifiable scientifically
valid test procedures. This data must be available in writing at the
time such claims are made.
(The poster must believe that this means only the WQA can certify or test any new technology and sell or promote it is a code violation)
4. Those who develop or disseminate, either in writing or verbally, product
marketing claims or materials, including packaging, labeling, and
installation, operating or maintenance materials, shall make available
reputable, verifiable, factual substantiation for those product marketing
claims or materials."
(again the poster must believe that if the WQA doesn't approve the technology any claims in writing are a violation of the Code of Ethics.)
I have been told that the manufacture and distributors of Hydrocare have repeatedly offered to send units to the WQA for testing and certification and have been told by WQA that they are not interested. Again, I think their lack of interest is due their beholding to the traditional water softener dealers who pay their salaries.
If you would like to read the post from this poster it is linked below and is post #25. I did go back and read the post and I maybe in error that he said the "WQA " had to do the testing and certification per say, but I believe that it was as much insinuated in his overall comment.
Hi Tom, a few years ago I saw a report on I believe 20/20. They had put some physical treatment devices on homes with hard water and softeners on other homes. The fixtures and appliances were the same as well as the water. After a year they cut pipes in half and sawed water heaters in half. The result was that the physical water treatment devices failed to do anything while the appliances and fixtures on softened water by ion exchange had no scale. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of this program?
You totally missed the boat on your interpretation of that posting on your forum. It is very obvious that the poster was telling you that the WQA Code requires members to not market products that have not been scientifically verified with valid test results. It looks to me like the device you promote does not have that testing by anyone so "no data....no sales" for you. Here is the full posting by 99K:
"I made negative / skeptical comments and I'm not threatened by newer
technology that would obsolete brine ... why should I be? The WC&P
recently published a story about alternate technologies to tradional
softening and the results were very clear ... IT DOES NOT WORK. Even if
you read a few positive testimonials, the claims were very subjective
and the people making the testimonials just weren't too sure about the
results ... very subjective "feel good" comments that had no scientific
data. If you are a member of the WQA, the code of ethics clearly
states that thou shall not market any products without factual data and
verifiable scientifically valid test procedures. No data ... no sales."
In this age of computer talk you must remember one cannot read between lines, read insinuations or read emotions. His posting if read as written is explicit enough.
You are a WQA member BUT don't trust them or consider them honest? Why be a member????
Regarding the subject of magnetic's, by the way not the subject of the original posting here, I do know quite a bit about that based on a very extensive file that I have and on personal professional field experience with magnetic devices over my 37 years of water treatment experience.
Well, originally we became members back in the 70's because we thought it would be beneficial for our company. As time went on it became more and more aparent that they were not by any means doing us any good but actually more harm. So, needless to say we felt we needed to keep our membership so we could stay abreast of what was going on in the industry.
You have a very extensive file on magnetics and this makes you an expert? Also your personal / professional field experiences with magnetic devices I assume includes ours????? You have 9 years more experience in the water treatment field than I do but I beleive it is safe to say you will never know as much about magnetic devices as we do and it is also safe to say that we will never know as much about water softeners as you do.
My point Gary is this, if someone one comes on the board and specifically asks a question about electromagnetic, electrostatic, catalytic, permanent magnetic water treatment devices why don't you let the few on here that know something about them address the question rather than you being sarcastic in your comments.
Why is it that the collective personal experience and first hand knowledge of physical treatment by so many in our industry is dismissed with tirades by proponents of those products, but they only offer their experience and anecdotal evidence and we are supposed to swallow it? Haven't seen one of these things work and I have removed many. Show me the result, validate it and have somethig for me to test onsite to prove a result.............oops not available, no such animal.
I can not respond about testing on magnetics as the Hydrocare technology does not use magnetics. I will leave that up to Scott as I feel he is much more the expert than I or you are..
As to testing to validate the Hydrocare or Hydropath claims please refer to my posting above about the testing that was done Independently by OnSpex. As a result of this test the claims made by the manufacturer were proven true and CVA certified the Hydrocare/Hydropath technology. Other testing has been done worldwide Independently by British Gas and Utility companies in Germany and Israel that all validate the technology and its claims to remove and prevent lime scale build up. British gas believes in the Hydropath technology so much that they make installation a requirement for all new hot water appliance maintenance contracts.
Testing has also been done by the Association of Petroleum Engineers for applications preventing scale build up in Oil well drilling that all proved to work as claimed.
As to personal use, I have been using a Hydrocare units on my home for the last 30 days, and my personal observation is that it has worked better than the claims of the manufacturer and I am so far 100% satisfied. We previously had a salt brine water softener in our last home and both my wife and I hated the slimy never clean feel of the water on our skin while showering. That slimy feel of soft water is the number 1 complaint I hear from salt brine soft water users. Hydrocare, in my opinion, provides the best benefits salt brine softened water without the slimy feel on the skin. I know that Hydrocare does not soften the water but my concern is the lime scale build up and cement type spotting build up everywhere that hard water touches. This is what our hydrocare unit has removed and will prevent in the future. If you want to see more go back to the other forum I posted in and you can read my weekly observations since I installed the Hydrocare in my home.
The problem boils down to the fact that traditional salt brine water softener dealers and proponents like yourself have no vested interest to validate any new technology like Hydrocare that could cost you business. You all hide behind your false, misleading and baseless attacks on any new non salt technology. The time will come, as more and more states and municipalities ban salt brine discharges into our public sewers and water ways, that salt brine based water softener products will be as obsolete as 8 track tapes. You need to overcome your biases and accept that the Hydropath technology works.
It is not "slimy" it is referred to as "silky". I am a proponent of PWT's, but admit that their applications are limited. Yes, they do descale. In some applications this can be troublesome (added TDS, hardness, noticeable film, spots, customer dissatisfaction, etc.). For recirculation, scale control applications and new plumbing there are benefits. As a replacement for ion exchange systems, not applicable. The people of Santa Clarita, CA were doped into saving money on an upgrade to their water treatment plant. They removed their salt systems only to find that it did not solve the problem of chloride discharge. Now they are left with expense up upgrading anyways, and hard water issues in their homes! Sounds like a great bandwagon to jump on. I prefer to walk and keep my soft water!
In response to Terry about the Hydrocare unit being testing by CSA & British Gas - Is there any published information as to the protocol used to perform this testing? I've been in the industry for over 10 years and have participated with NSF and WQA on developing protocols for testing these types of devices and nothing was ever developed. If CSA or British Gas has a protocol, which would prove this device works I think the WQA should take interest as it is the Water Quality Association not the Water Softener Association. I personally would be interested in seeing the the test data for this product.
Had a sales call today, 9 gpg hard trace of iron and really nothing else remarkable. Oh, there was a little device with a red and green light and some wire wrapped around the pipe. Lets see, the complaints about the water were the glassware is full of white spots, skin is dry, hair not managable, and the wash comes out poorly. They stated that the water in thier Manhattan apartment is how they want the water to be. That is1 gpg hard. Why didn't the thing on the pipe soften the water as advertised........because they don't soften the water. I've learned alot of new tricks, and they all seem to plug in with little wires attached to pipes or have a magnet on them. Nice trick, take peoples money and deliver nothing. I prefer not to rip people off.
In fact while looking at the Canadian website I found that the CWQA (Canadian Water Quality Association does recognize the Hydropath technology, here is the excerpt from the web site:
“We are the ONLY PRODUCT OF ITS KIND (electronic) recognized by the Canadian Water Quality Association due to our world-wide patented technology. No other electronic water conditioner treatment can compare. We have proven test results and our technology is used globally by millions. No other electronic water treatment is recognized by this association, and in fact, the CWQA does not recommend any magnetic or wire-wrap devices as they do not have any solid proven results. HydroFlow Canada Inc. has been a member of the CWQA since 2009. THE CWQA DOES NOT ENDORSE OUR PRODUCT ONLY RECOGNIZES THE TECHNOLOGY BEHIND IT.”
I believe that if you contact British Gas they will send you the compete testing results. The UK manufacture of the product web site is http://www.hydroflow.com
Mike ,
You are making the assumption that Hydocare and the Hydropath technology uses wire wrapped around a pipe with wires attached, “Oh, there was a little device with a red and green light and some wire wrapped around the pipe”This technology uses neither magnetics nor any wire wrapped around pipes and should not be included in discussions of such. It is electronic which is why the CWQA recognizes this technology and not any other PWT products.
The bottom line to all you old dogs Hydrocare & Hydroflow with the Hydropath technology has been proven to work worldwide and is being proven to work in the US every day and maybe it is time for you old dogs to learn some new tricks.
I know this is a hot topic, but before you write something intemperate, follow these steps:
-- Lie down
-- Put a cold compress on your forehead
-- Take a sip of water.
-- Imagine that the person you planned to jab below the belt is actually standing right next to you in the same room and actually turns out to be a very nice person.....
And if you still feel like launching a personal attack, don't!
Hi Terry, no I'm not confusing it with your product. I was merely stating the type of product I came across yesterday. My comments are not directed at your product, my comments are on a genre of product. As far as being an old dog, I find old dogs to be very loyal, giving and wise. Puppies roll in their own feces, they may look cute but phew, you don't want to be around them.
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